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Do You Believe the Market Has Correctly Determined Your Profession's Wages?YES 21% (10 votes) NO 79% (37 votes) Total votes: 47
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Of course, those in the top
Of course, those in the top 1% would disagree with the rest of us. The "market" has been very very good to them, and so has the shopkeeper, Dubya...
John Stossel is at it again!
I saw him bitching and moaning once again about all the waste among one of the bottom 99% of professions. On this particular night he wants us to get pissed off at teachers.
When will these bums, who can't build a damned thing with their hands nor their minds, lay off those of us who actually build this civilization and instead focus on the far greater waste among those who have a talent for manipulating manpower and/or spending their daddy's cash?
Do you need more of our money Johnny? Keep it up though as it has worked pretty well for your kind these last few years: Keep the welder pissed at the teacher. Keep the teacher pissed at the plumber. Etc.... Worry your ass off about a few bucks an hour and let the thousand dollar an hour guy go unanalyzed.
I saw that show too
I saw that show too and I think that he did a lot of damage to teachers and teacher unions. The way that the tape was cut for one thing made teachers unions look like all the horror stories that the republicans have told since the unions were formed. He picked the loudest most abrasive clips and pasted them into a mosaic that portrayed public school teachers as greedy, inept, lazy and generally the kind of adults that you wouldn't want your kids to be around.
Then by extreme contrast he did a long infomercial staring teachers at charter schools as the talented, kind, very engaged, competent teachers that all parents want for their students. The problem is that it was very well done, if the goal is to demonize public schools and sell vouchers and charter schools, no doubt it worked on thousands of viewers.
Awe for the good old days, before deregulation, when there were equal time laws and the news was the news. At least then we could demand to see and hear the other side of every important issue.
Oh btw, I hear that FOX news channel is losing viewership to the more moderate cable [actual] news channels.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross." ~ Sinclair Lewis
In a time of deception telling the truth is a revolutionary act. ~ George Orwell
What gets me is this massive
What gets me is this massive Republican/Libertarian race to the bottom. They keep bashing the bottom 99% of professions while NOT giving a rat's ass about the abuse and laziness in upper tier "professions".
I agree with your assessment Di, but even if one found some workers to be lacking, why this constant Conservative effort to f with those who organize for a descent salary at the peasant level?
If Blue Collar workers fall for this they deserve their ever shittier incomes. The vast majority are due a long overdue raise and pricks like Stossel and Beck deserve pay cuts. I don't give a shit if a dock worker isn't infinitely efficient when guys making 100 times as much are not worth a dock worker's salary.
UNIONS YES
Jim and Di,
Thank you, both of you for pointing out the strong bias in Stossel's program
last night!
I've seen the entire spectrum of public school teachers. Some of them have
forgotten why they are there and it shows in their classrooms, their relationships
with the students and the work their students do.
However, most of them are very hard working, dedicated professionals.
They spend a lot of their own money to buy supplies for students that
aren't provided. That wasn't brought up last night, was it?
They spend a lot of time preparing lessons, grading papers, documenting
test scores/grades over and above any "normal" work schedule.
Stossel seems to have a personal problem with teachers and their unions.
This isn't the first time he's gone after them.
Did he even touch the subject of how much some administrators are making?
Did he question their six figure salaries?
NO.
It's all about the bottom line, baby
It cuts into their extreme profits. Why else would "our representatives" not only allow corporations to move off shore to 3rd world/cheep labor countries, but give them tax breaks and bonuses to do so?
If you look back at history, especially the last 100 yrs. in the U.S. you see that they, for the most part, think of workers as a necessary evil. NOLA's lack of assistance on every level is a very in-your-face example of the fact that "they" don't like the working class. It isn't about race, it is about class. Those with money are favored over those who change our beds and clean our homes and take care of our children and operate equipment in our factories. It has always been like that. Sure when workers unionized they made some important gains, but look at how corporations solved that problem. They took those low tech jobs and went off shore where workers have few rights and are desperate for any kind of job, just to eat and feed their kids.
They don't care about what you and I call fairness. They care about profits, the bottom line in business is for them the social and spiritual bottom line too.
If we are going to win back the government and rescue our society we are going to have to fight them tooth and nail. For them it is much more than just a seat in congress, it is a shot at the power and wealth and to run with the big dogs. For us it is a chance to make change for the betterment of all our people. They hate everything that you and I love, so they see us as a very large threat.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross." ~ Sinclair Lewis
In a time of deception telling the truth is a revolutionary act. ~ George Orwell
Corporations organize. They
Corporations organize. They collude. They implicitly drop competing and act in union.
Why shouldn't employees?
Employees should
Employees should do whatever they can to stay in the real middle class, have the best working conditions they can get and the best wages and benifits they can get.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross." ~ Sinclair Lewis
In a time of deception telling the truth is a revolutionary act. ~ George Orwell
Isn't it ironic that many
Isn't it ironic that many State and Federal government workers get periodic "automatic" pay increases? They get "step increasees" based on time-in-grade, and COLA increases based on adjustments to the local economies where they are employed. To me, this is a fair way to compensate productive employees.
Why then, does the "government" shy away from requiring that private employers pay at least a minimum "living wage?" Why have Unions been marginalized as a collective bargaining voice for American workers? The common answer to those two questions is apparent: corporate greed backed and supported by bought-and-paid-for politicians.
The Libertarian and neoconservative-Republican answer to fairness in the workplace, is "if you don't like your job, your employer, your working conditions, or your wages -- start your own business, and pay yourself what you believe you're worth." This don't let the door hit you in the ass ideology also applies to their views on discrimination in the workplace.
As Jim so eloquently points out, why can't an employee also be an entrepreneur in the workplace? A "product" is produced by two main ingredients (read partners): capital and labor. Why are they not given equal shares in the profit? Why has slavery and indentured servitude always been so popular with the moneyed, aristocratic class?
Why? Because aristocrats do not view that half of the partnership that actually turns their capital into a product as an equal partner, but rather as just another "resource" to be bought as cheaply as possible. Hence the corporate term, "Human Resources."
Why is the janitor less valuable than the CEO, and by such a wide margin? (one of Jim's "tests")...;-)
"This don't let the door
"This don't let the door hit you in the ass ideology also applies to their views on discrimination in the workplace."
That never occurred to me Bill. I think Democrats could gain some ground pointing it out.
I also like your use of the word "entrepreneur" with respect to labor. I was certainly on the "whats good for the goose is good for the gander" tirade but now you cause me a dilemma: I have been beating up on the word entrepreneur but perhaps we should just use it to refer to EMPLOYEES.
As to the janitor ;)
He gets less because there is a larger pool of workers who can do his job. Therefore, there is a greater chance you will find someone in that distribution who will accept less pay. HOWEVER Democrats are not Right Wing Commies as Republicans presently are. Americans CAN talk among themselves and decide to come into union about NOT accepting crappy wages. (In the same way Corporations come into union by implicitly forming monopolies. When Corporations are too few in number they do not compete. They simply look over their shoulders to see what other Corps. are paying for labor and do in kind. They form an informal UNION.
In other words, to a non Communist, wages are not fixed.
Unions should call themselves Corporations.
It just struck me that in some circles Unions should simply call themselves Corporations.
More to the point, it provides a new paradigm for beating back the likes of Stossel.
' The Education of Ms. Groves'
was on 'Dateline NBC' Saturday night.
This is a very accurate account of what it is like
for a new teacher.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14454479/
Free Market Diarrhea.
Anyone who has followed this site knows I continually defend the "Free" Market from attacks by the Far Left (as opposed to Liberals).
Of course no one in the world wants a Free Market so I place it in quotes above. Even the passing troll who voted above DEMANDS that the Market NOT be Free. He does so by voting for Anti Monopoly Laws, Time Limited Patent Laws, etc.
When John Stossel demands a Free Market he is BOTH demanding the blessings of many independent parallel hands and minds working (a damned good thing) AND that we sift through the many souls in our Nation in hopes of finding someone who will work for ever lessoning pay (a damned bad thing when applied more broadly than the way the fat cats behave.)
If you're old enough to have cared for loved one's as they lay dying in a hospital you'll note those care givers who do a host of jobs, including wiping bottoms. The Market of Stossel ain't gonna come up with a better way to wipe a bottom. All that is left then is for those in power to work hard to find those who will do the job for less. And less. And less...
Can someone please tell me why this is a grand thing? To attempt to lower the cost of such difficult work while CEO's fail to compete. When was the last time you saw a CEO cutting his salary to the bone in order to produce his "product" at the lowest possible cost?
We have been pounded over the last couple of decades by the notion that businesses are in business to make money. Let's agree on that point. But what then is OUR job? The only way someone gets rich is by getting people to work for a low enough wage or by charging a lot for a product or service.
The "passing troll" most
The "passing troll" most likely IS paid what he or she is worth, based on their own sheep's-eye view of themselves.
Wow. That is a very nice
Wow. That is a very nice, very short, way of getting to the point Bill.
Of course some YES votes are entirely valid, aside from those due to timidity, being a member of a collusive monopoly, etc.
I just thought that one was suspect.
UNIONS: A perspective from the craftsmanship museum.
Another taste of the craftsmanship museum:
http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/Ho.htm
The above sculpture was created by Mark Ho. The home page: http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/rooms.htm contains many links including the one about Union Trades and particular craftsman.
All I can say is WOW!
All I can say is WOW! These are wonderful beyond words.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross." ~ Sinclair Lewis
In a time of deception telling the truth is a revolutionary act. ~ George Orwell
Amazing how a mechanical
Amazing how a mechanical object can be so expressive.
(All the photos are of one piece. All the parts are machined to articulate. I was not sure that was clear as I called it a sculpture.)
sculpture
Submarine USS Wahoo ss238
Looks like I-Robot.............
LABOR:from the perspecitve of a laborer/businessman.
Too refreshing not to quote:
More from Joe Martin: a man who built his business honorably and who seeks to advance both moral imperatives when it comes to labor, AND present arguments which go beyond it. Something that is near and dear to my own heart as I have recognized that not everyone has an empathetic heart.
How refreshing is it to read something like this from a man who made his millions the old fashioned way?
Call the Republican Tax Police!
Please note that: "This book is published on the honor system. If you enjoy it and feel you received valuable business information, we ask that you make a contribution of a ten dollars or whatever you feel it is worth to the Joe Martin Foundation for Excellence in Craftsmanship. Details on how to contribute can be found at the end of this book."
What Will the Democrats Do For Labor?
Over at Democratic Underground at the very top of the page you'll find:
While this is infinitely more than Republicans will do for labor, is it enough to trump the nonsense Republicans get people fighting over???
Labor and Capitol: Equal Partners???
I argue here in Myth 7 about how one gets rich.
I argue in this thread that we might accept, at least on some level, that businesses truly are in business to make money
Liberals should note the need for sound bites which tug at the same emotional strings the Right uses. In this case, one need not always make an appeal to an employers heart, or the electorates for that matter.
As Bill Harding notes in another thread, one might even press the case that LABOR IS KING:
Here is my question:
Think about it. Other than the numbered list (and perhaps some other counter examples you can add to it) what does it mean to say a business creates jobs? It seems to me that most business count themselves as job creators when in fact they create NO jobs. ZERO.
If you invent a labor saving device fine. If you create such a grand new product that it gets people to work longer hours or actually enter the work force in order to buy it then fine. BUT beyond that I ask all my friends at Democrats.com to let me in on what I am missing. Do most business create not a damned thing?
Which brings me to my final point. If the above holds, then what we are doing, what the majority of working men and woman are doing, is simply living life. We need bread. We need to move the loaf of bread. We need to fix the trucks that transport it. Etc. The work must be done. Most Business leaders neither deserve nor require over the top gratitude or pay checks as they are NOT creating jobs. They NEED bread. They NEED it transported. Etc.
LABOR IS KING.
At least is could be if men act like men again and demand more for their labor, just as their bosses do. It could be if men came into union rather than being played by issues like: Forcing my kids to say your prayers in school because you think religion in America is by majority rule. Creating second class citizenships for Gays. Etc.
I don't have one damned political problem with the next man's personal views any more than I do with his choice of sports teams. We can have our knock down drag out fights but when it comes to pay checks it is time for all Americans to build the Democratic Party. If you love the Republican Party for other reasons then pick whoever you may for President, but massive debt is being placed on working class Americans. With the Democratic Party brought back to the working man's party (by ousting the DLC) you will do the Republican Party a good turn. They too will be forced to compete. In the meantime Congress should be returned to Democrats, to working class Americans (better than 90% of all Americans).
Why are there so many laws
Why are there so many laws which regulate a worker's right to withhold his or her Labor, and not even a single law (that I am aware of) that governs an investor's right to withhold his or her Capital? Sounds like a "no-brainer" until you really think about it.
Does the "free market" concept only apply to Capital? Does Capital have the "right" to demand (exploit?) the services of American Labor without negotiation?
In Communist societies, the State controls all of the Capital AND the Labor. In our American Capitalistic society, the Aristocracy controls most of the Capital, and Organized Labor used to represent the collective interests (and distribution) of American Labor.
The Republican neoconservatives have slowly transformed American Capitalism into a more Communist-like society. Today, politically-connected Aristocrats not only control the Capital, but they have politically diminished Organized Labor's (and therefore, the American Worker's) role as well.
Conclusion? American Capitalism is in grave danger of becoming a neo-Communistic form of corporate-controlled government, which does NOT represent the Constitutional foundations of our country, nor its People. When the "societal" part of socioeconomics gets left behind (pun intended), what is left is either Communism, or Fascism.
It is NOT the separation of Church and State that I worry about. It is the separation of Corporate Influence and State that keeps me awake at nights.
Well now we are just going
Well now we are just going non linear!!! Good thing too as it means in no time at all Democrats will wake up Americans and you and I can spend some time at the eyepiece/monitor ;)
"Free" Enterprise slice both ways.
And while I am enjoying the
And while I am enjoying the synergy please don't remind me of the old adage about a horse and some water ;)
I am a Trucker
Do to the HUGE shortage of truckers our wages have been going up quite a bit lately.However do to $3 a gallon fuel and Healthcare+plus other rising costs I got rid of my rig and 2 trailers last year and went back to company driving.The day of the independant owner is over just some of them havent read the memo yet.UPS drivers had better watch out they bought out OVERNIGHT and are looking at another large company[SCHNEIDER NATIONAL]looks like they want to bust up the union.cya peaceout y'all
Outsourcing Truckers.
And lets not forget the chatter about putting a superhighway straight down the center of the USA from Mexico to Canada so they can outsource American Truckers.
Do Gas Compnaies Compete or Collude?
I have found that if the number of companies in a particular endeavor is too small, they no longer compete, but rather form informal monopolies.
This is why Free-For-All Markets don't work: they tend towards monopoly or informal monopoly. I'll coin the phrase polyopoly. (Man that's musical!)
This is also why "Free" Markets do not exist. Those at the top come into union to break monopolies and spread the wealth around (a wee little bit).
I mention the above because it illuminates the poll above. Isolated pockets of wholesome Free Markets exist. We live them. We watch them on TV (e.g. American Chopper,etc.) but they do not exist across broad swaths of the economy.
Some jobs may have there wages set quite reasonably by Free For All Markets, but the majority require Monopoly breaking laws.