How do we make the reasonable GOP voter aware of the fascist side of the GOP? - (Or do they even care?)
I believe/hope that most red state voters are decent, reasonably conservative, God fearing people who have had their trust abused by this administration.
I also believe that an uncomfortably large percentage of Americans supported the GOP agenda because of fascist tendencies such as;
1) White supremacy,
2) Homophobia,
3) Xenophobia and,
4) Adolescent, non-specific post 9/11 Militarism.
I mean, how many bigots, neo-nazis or gay bashers do you think supported Kerry?? I actually believe that Karl Rove saw this uncomfortably large minority as THE decisive "swing" vote and sought them out with his various campaign tactics like;
1) "Activist Judges" issue (the bane of segregationists during Civil Rights),
2) Gay-marriage issue (homophobia) and,
3) Post 9/11 fear-mongering (xenophobia).
Do you think that reasonable GOP votes are capable of realizing who their more unsavory political bedmates are, and if they are, would they be just too damn stubborn to even care?
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Reasonable GOP votes? Is ther
Reasonable GOP votes? Is there such a thing? If so, I can't see it. I just don't know where those people come from. Can there really be that many one issue voters? Or is it more insidious, as you suggest? If so, that's pretty scary and really sad.
I find there is something wrong with the whole picture. The lies, the mistakes, the lack of accountability and now claiming the election ratifies it all. The plans to get his way on Social Security - more fear-mongering. Holding the city of D.C. up for their homeland security funds to cover inaugural events. I don't care if it is security; IMO, it's a partisan event. How about flaunting of the propaganda laws? I laugh at the irony of their position on "activist judges"; they claim they want to do away with them but that is exactly who they are looking for.
The list is endless and cannot understand the continued support - the travesties committed by this administration far outdo "Watergate" or anything the Clinton's were accused of. Where is the outrage and when will the people open their eyes to the truth and what it is costing us?
Take comfort in knowing people agree with you.
Take comfort in knowing people agree with you, people.
I concur with you wholly. Rea
I concur with you wholly. Reasonable GOP votes are an oxymoron. (Or just moron if you refer to the GOP!) LOL.
I agree. Reasonable republic
I agree. Reasonable republicans? what? not such thing. we must unite and rid the us against the evil call the GOP. Bush and his fascist army of republicans will destroy america, they have already started...
I have to agree on this
You probably know the old saying that some people see things as "black and white" well I think this is true. And the problem with these die hard Republicans is that common facts aren't facts,and basic truth is not truth...Even with everything going on in Iraq they see a rainbow...This isn't to say that we don't see things that simple either, but the difference between us and them is that we work on our views and are able to be approached and even re-think our views. The only difference is that they call us "flip-floppers"
You're Playing Right Into Their Hands
By branding red-state voters as people for whom "common facts aren't facts," you and other progressives are playing right into the hands of Karl Rove and the Republicans. I know, because I am (I believe) the one TRUE Republican left in this country, and as such I am fed up with the Bush Administration. Labelling Bush supporters as racist, sexist, homphobic, xenophobic, etc., won't get you guys anywhere. There is a substantial number of Republicans who are furious about the mismanagement of the Iraq war and the deficit and the crying wolf on Social Security. If Democrats can convince these people that they are no longer the party of George McGovern and Walter Mondale, they will gain ground against the GOP.
As for the red states, the message should be very simple: Republicans are only interested in your vote. The Democratic Party is committed to reviving the South and Midwest economically; we understand that you vote for the candidate who you think shares your values, because you feel like neither candidate cares about your part of the country. Reject their pandering and embrace REAL values like honesty, inclusiveness, compassion and opportunity.
Some good points.
I've tried to write this post multiple times; it always devolves into a short book of rants. It's difficult; I seem to be long winded.
Yes, the party isn't likely to attract Republican voters by insulting them. Yes, it's unfortunate that so very many unattractive, insulting labels so accurately apply the the current version of the Republican Party. It's simply hard to characterize the behavior we see, without using the actual words (as defined) that apply.
Yes, it's also good to hear that not all Republicans are pleased with the actions of their party (maybe some can be reached). However, what are they going to do about it? They certainly should not be waiting for Democrats to speak well of them before they do something. I see generally two choices for them. Lobby their party leaders to put an end to all the un-American, un-Democratic behavior, or recognize that their party is doing very wrong things (actually, the word 'evil' comes to mind; and no, IMO it's not too strong a term) and has no intention of changing, and so embrace the Democratic party (if only because it's the only one that supports the non-wealthy). If you do turn to the Democrats, you will find yourself welcome; very welcome, as you would be seen as evidence that there really is hope for the seemingly lost souls who are supporting the destructive activities of the Republican party. I wonder also, though, do Republicans realize what harm they've done to our country by reelecting Bush?
One should also, in all fairness, point out that if Democrats, in private forums, do describe Republicans in unfavorable terms, this is but a ghost of a fraction of both the quantity and severity of foul, insulting and harsh language and characterizations displayed by hoardes of Republicans to smear or disqualify Democrats in forums of every type across the internet and beyond. Worse, Republicans frequently express their negative opinions by their actions and not just their language (think congress, where Republicans have literally excluded Democrats from participating).
We all should cultivate greater tolerance, compassion, and respect for each other. In times of war (and I'm not referring to IRAQ), and especially in politics, that runs short. All the more short when one side, unilaterally dismisses the other side (acts with no tolerance, compassion or respect) and also tramples upon the almost sacred historic traditions/procedures/rules of our government and society (America as we've known and loved it)... We must do whatever we have to, in order to preserve our way of life (our very freedom and liberty), and if that includes aggressive behavior, so be it.
And that was just the short version (gulp).
But the GOP is a Magnet for Intolerance
I'm not accusing you, I'm just stating the truth that today's GOP is a magnet for intolerant thought. The question you should be debating with your fellow conservatives is why? Don't say we're extreme when the party in power is the one defiling our constitution and prematurely engaging us in war with deceitful assertions.
Who cares about Mondale or McGovern? The real "extremist" label belongs on today's GOP, not on what you perceive to be annoying Democrats. Extremist actions are occuring right now at the behest and supervision of the current admnistration. Just vote with your heart, and encourage others to do so as well.
No I'm not, if they can't read a paper and see whats being said
The news papers, although, historically not an accurate record of foreign affairs is replete day after day about issues that Bush and Co. say and then shows how they are wrong. If people can't see things for how they are and hide behind a strict father morality then they are not facing reality, plain and simple.
As for the classification of Bush supporters as being, racist,anti-gay and anti-abortion...This classification is correct. How bumper stickers do you see that say Pro-Life and then Kerry/Edwards2004? The issue was used by Bush in this election..in fact he recently spoke to a pro-life rally via telephone.
And as for us wanting to convince people that we are not the party of McGovern or Mondale. This is simply not true. McGovern and Mondale represent the best in what is seen in Democrats, the didn't pander to the right and remained comfortable in their convictions. I am proud to say that we nominated McGovern against Nixon and Mondale against Reagan. The two Republican presidents I just mentioned have gone down in history as two of the worst we have ever had.
They will not open their eyes
Bush controls the media through FOX news and talk radio so they will not wake up. Worst, our democratic reps are caving on everything. That's why we need to take drastic action now. If we let this continue we will have an end like Nazi Germany.
I agree also...
I can definetly see things going this way, have any of you read The Handmaiden's Tale, basically its about a fundalmentalist Christian revolution taking over in America
To answer your first question...
...we don't. In my opinion, any time wasted arguing with right wingers is time wasted. All that happens is they ignore the facts or trump them up to "liberal media" or "liberal colleges" and will defend right wing ideology or just ignore us. In the process, we become frustrated and annoyed.
I say we focus our time on:
1) Keeping the Democratic base fired up not only AGAINST the neo-conservatives but FOR the liberals.
2) Bringing independents and non-voters in by a) Standing for something, b) Articulating what that stand us, c) Showing what is wrong with the opposition's policy, d) Giving solutions.
If by some stroke of luck we convert some conservatives, that would be fine. But it should be indirect.
Yes I agree the Key is bringi
Yes I agree the Key is bringing in more Voters... We NEED to do better then around 50%...
"I beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies"
Sure, but...
Sure, but in order to do that, we have to get our message out with sufficient volume and frequency to compete. If only we had our own popular broadcast network (covering all markets).
It seems that however that is to be done, it's going to take a large and aggressive action. Even something so far fetched as a national organization of Democrats everywhere devoted to bringing a new TV/Cable network of our own into being. If every Democrat invested whatever they could afford, and if we could find Democrats with the requisite broadcast business skills, such a 'democratic public broadcast network' might even be a real possibility...
But we need a well known, well liked leader with significant financial resources, just to get such a thing off the ground. Besides, who's willing to think that big? Would the common democrat care enough or be willing to take the risk involved to invest?
Alas, mayhaps that's just another daydream.
Progressive Media Outlets
Funny you should mention it... I have had the same such daydream... Recently, after I mentioned the idea of having Democrats buy as many stocks as they could afford in a particular media outlet (Like FOX) and creating a Voting Trust (appointing someone with backbone like Dean or Carter) to represent the trust at Shareholders meetings and become a major shareholder with sway in the decision / programming process...literally the day after... Rupert Murdoch purchased $6B of FOXs outstanding shares to avoid a hostile takeover. Made me think I was on the right track.
To your point... FOX is not the only network (although it would be sweet to make it change its tenor)... we could still pursue a Voting Trust strategy with other networks to at least obtain leverage in the media.
This is an effort that would need to be spearheaded by a major Democratic player with high finace background, like George Soros.
They're too stubborn and delusional
Stubborn and delusional. If you really listen to the conservatives, what they say they like about the prez or his admin, are attributes that are basically wishful thinking. The current prez and his admin are corporations first and people last, but because they toot the moral values horn loudly, no conservs actually look at their actions, only at their words.
How many times do I have to t
How many times do I have to tell you people? When you leave, close the door!
Sheesh, I come on here late today, and the place was full of republi-flies. It took me an hour to read all of that right-wing stuff, and now I've got this huge indignant all worked up and no one left to vent at.
Dealing with Trolls and Dogmatic Republicans
I have to give the Republicans credit... they all seem to take the battle outward and fight on open or even on their opponents turf... the old best defense is a good offense tact....
Even so, I do think Democrats on this site can take some productive steps to fight back... but we need to be organized about it.... and take the fight to GOP turf...
For example... we could cull what we believe are the most pointed and persuasive comments, articles, studies that debunk the Republican mirage that GWB is leading the country in the correct direction and then in a very targeted fashion, post those articles on a bunch of Republican sites.
I rarely have the stomach to go to a Republican site and read the lies and venom about progressive ideas, the xenophobia, and the self-righteousness. So I do not want to read that drivel and take the time to respond. Nonetheless, we can post (copy and paste) critical issue information on those sites so that the readers can get some facts minus spin. I do not intend to argue with them ... just post facts...
For example, the Brookings Institute had a panel discussin on social security reform, with some members for private accounts and some not. One point that stood out... when pro-private account persons had the actual costs and risks explained to them, the support for privatizing ss dropped to less than 15% of the people polled.
We can also post articles on the results of the WMD search and the number of soldiers coming back dead or wounded.
We can give the GOP the "right back at ya"...
Stop this insanity
It's time to herd the cats again...
Look, the Regressive trolls that have been lurking on this site are not here to debate, no matter what their rhetoric is. When they say that we will never win their votes with our liberal views or aggressive arguments, they are right. We never will convert them. They are the ones who will ride their party's bus right over the cliff and be happy to do so. The simple fact that they are here illustrates that they are motivated enough to read and seek their own information. Their minds are made up and nothing we can do or say will ever change them, no matter how powerful and substantiated our case may be. Engaging them only fulfills their warped desire for entertainment at our expense.
The ones that we can reach are those that are misinformed through the constant stream of lies and half-truths coming from the White House. We can also reach out to those who saw no distinguishable difference between Kerry and Bush, by forcing our party back to its roots, and letting those people know that we truly represent their best interests. Unfortunately, although they represent a large portion of our society, very few of them come here. Our discussions here are for our own use. We collectively represent the progressive democrats, and our goal is to shape and influence the Democratic Party. We do not accomplish this by arguing with them.
I know it's difficult to resist debating them, especially when we have the truth on our side. Shit, I did the same thing yesterday. Brian, Vince, Big Blue Donkey and Necco, you all made some fantastic, well-crafted and researched arguments, but they fell on deaf ears. I'm sincerely impressed by the work you did on them, and in fact it was beneficial to me (and probably others) to learn some things that I didn't know before.
Let's all make a promise to not play with these "sugar-coated turds" anymore (man, I love that euphemism). We should promise to slap some sense into any one who engages them, and remind them of this pact.
OK, there, I said it. I've got a drink and the Majority Report going in the background. Let me have it.
You're correct, and believe m
You're correct, and believe me I've been trying to kick the habit, but it's hard man. Is there a political equivalent to methadone?
I usually sit down with a col
I usually sit down with a cold one (not Coors) and pretend that I'm in my happy place, which by the way is at the Plantation Course at Kapalua.
Did I mention that you suck?
I For One AM Here To Debate
I can assure you that I'm no Regressive Troll. I believe that the current Republican bigwigs have betrayed the fundamental values that have defined their party for a long time, and I'm tired of the deceit and recklessness of the Bush Administration. IMO, it is in the country's best interest if the Democrats win in 2006 and 2008, but the Democratic Party as is cannot win. All of the arguments I see and hear from liberals now - refuting the GOP claim to moral values, etc. - where were they during the campaign? That kind of language is one of the keys to winning. BTW, I'm DEFINITELY not here because I want to be entertained at anyone's expense. If I was looking for entertainment online, a political forum is the last place I'd look.
Sometimes, I have got
to debate. I came back last week, hoping to avoid debating trolls. And I tried my best yesterday, too. But since Wheatly was not responding to the tirades, yet seemed somewhat intelligent, I thought I would try a different approach. When he took the bait, I couldn't resist trying.
Unfortuately, his lack of responce to the challenge just led to immediately go off on the boss. Boy, that felt good.
Today's GOP Does Appeal To Unsavory Groups
Like I said in my post, I believe that MOST GOP voters are just basic hard working conservative people who have had their trust abused.
However, it cannot be ignored that the GOP does appeal to racists, xenophobes, homophobics and religious right extremists.
My point is deeper than Democrat vs Republican. If you really care about America and your party, CONFRONT these unsavory elements WITHIN the GOP and turn back the intolerance that Karl Rove manipulated and associated with your party. This self analysis would serve ALL Americans. I think REAL conservatives can serve a valuable purpose, just don't let it get out of control.
Your time would be better served talking to your fellow Republicans and engaging in some serious self-criticisms. Don't worry about Democrats and Michael Moore, worry about why your party is such a magnet for intolerant extremists. Worry about Iraq, worry about torture, worry about the economy, and most importantly, worry about fascism on the rise.
GOP=Greed Greed Greed Greed G
GOP=Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed Greed
GOP=?
Greedy Opportunistic Panic-mongers