Clintons/McCain, a GOP front group

Today I had first-hand experience with the Clintons/McCain.com website. It's clearly a GOP front group calculated to sow discord among Democrats, possibly funded by McCain (someone reportedly saw Cristi Adkins's myspace page called Clintons/McCain and it said “Paid for by McCain 2008.” )

On June 5, 2008, Wired magazine reported: "Though this web address does not yet go anywhere, [clintons/mccain] the RNC registered the domain name on May 15, according to whois data from the registrar Network Solutions."

While the domain names are slightly different the site is heavily vetted by mods, very hostile and secretive, and I had to laugh at this: when I mentioned the Wired story, they assured me that the RNC was not behind either their site OR the other domain. I asked them how they could be so sure about the other domain (with which they disavowed any connection), but by then they had already blocked my account LOL.

I would like to see the DNC expose dirty tricks like this. What do you think?

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I think

that they are definitely repugs.  I remember when I and my brother posted on freerepublic many years ago.  After a rather polite but questioning post we were cursed and blocked.  It's always amusing to see how repugs react when confronted with the truth or somebody who doesn't drikng their kool-aid.

Reply to Haruka

I'm not sure what it means, but the PUMA forum does not appear to be heavily moderated. Or perhaps it was at one time and they simply gave up. I don't know. Whatever the case, I've seen loads of posts getting through in which angry Democrats criticize the site and what it stands for. Whereas the C/McCain [edited name] site is extremely authoritarian and closed. And these are the same people who will tell you that America is the greatest country in the world because we are the most free.

Which raises the question in my mind: do all of the major OECD countries face this situation? Do they have campaign front groups? I rather doubt it. It seems to me that, due to the extraordinary influence of corporations on the American political process, the political stakes (and rewards of winning) are much higher here than they are in most other first world countries.

Now just imagine if we had complete public financing of elections. Wouldn't that tend to discourage such front groups? Wouldn't there also be greater accountability?

Food for thought.

There is no "conspiracy"

There is no "conspiracy" here, and it is not "illegal" to register a domain name. These PUMA people are NOT Democrats, and they are advocating voting for John McCain because they will not accept the outcome of the Democratic Primary process which chose Obama.

This thread also constitutues free advertising for an insidious group of malcontents, and does nothing to further Democratic unity.

Free advertising? No. A call to action? Perhaps.

First of all, let me be very clear. Forum posts on that site are so heavily vetted, it's even difficult for neutral posts to get through. As a result, there's pitifully little activity on the board. Secondly, the home page is so patently offensive to all but the most bigoted conservatives, it's not likely to attract much interest. For example, it features a side-by-side photo of a youthful Obama wearing what appears to be a caftan, juxtaposed alongside a photo of a young Lt. Commander McCain in his flightsuit. This sort of bigoted nonsense has little appeal to Democrats, and that's far from the worst of it.

But to get to my main point:

No matter what your political party or leaning, I think (or at least I hope) that most Americans would consider front groups to be unethical, even undemocratic. How is democracy and the public interest served by the existence of groups pretending to be what they are not?

Now I'm sure there's nothing illegal about the RNC setting up a group that falsely claims to consist of former Hillary supporters. There may be nothing illegal about the McCain campaign funding such a group (as has been alleged by a poster on one progressive blog who claims to have seen evidence of that.) But why shouldn't this be news just as much as any underhanded effort to win an election can be considered news? (Remember the Bush campaign's efforts in the South to convince Republican voters that McCain had a "black love child"?)

McCain is running a campaign predicated on his honesty and responsiveness to the people. What if it turns out that his campaign had aided or funded a front group? Doesn't the public have the right to that information? And if so, how does one go about finding out the facts?

Now here's an example of a group that investigates front groups, generally astroturfing outfits, not the kind we're talking about here.
http://www.prwatch.org/node/7213

And this is a site devoted exclusively to exposing PUMA
http://www.yestodemocracy.com/

But from what I understand, PUMA's forum has actually allowed many Democrats to post angry messages denouncing it as a Republican front group, whereas Clintons/McCain makes it crystal clear that they will brook no dissent whatsoever. So while I remain quite suspicious of PUMA, I feel even more confident that Clintons/McCain is wholly and unmistakeably a front group. And yet no one seems to be taking a closer look.

So what is to be done? Is this something we could ask some young aspiring journalist to look into? Does anyone know of an instance in which a group like this was exposed in the past?

Fyi, PUMAs claim to be

Fyi, PUMAs (Party Unity My Ass) claim to be Democrats. They are nothing more than die-hard Hillary supporters, and disenchanted whiners who are going to take their ball and go home.

McCain's people may, or may not, be supporting them, but they formed well before the formal convention nomination process. We have seen them on Dems.com well before they put up that website. They are akin to the DLC-wing of the Democratic Party, and we DO NOT need them. They are NOT a "front group" (under the definition of the term http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Front_groups ) but a group of Hillary supporters who have switched their votes to McCain because of an intense dislike for Obama. They are very vocal Democratic traitors, and are hiding nothing.

And yes, you are providing free advertising to them by making a big issue out of their mere existence, which is exactly what they want. We should ignore them, and let them have their little hissy fit on their low-hit sites. Everytime you post their site name, it generates another hit on Google, and more traffic to their site. This garbage is also visible to the 30-40 thousands of daily visitors to Dems.com who may not of even heard of this group. Nice work.

It does not matter if you can't log-on to their site, you can still see it, and read it. And people like you are only playing into their hands. We have much more important work to do here than to discuss the merits or morals of an alleged "front group." Who in the hell cares who pays the bills for Republicans, DLC Republican-Lites, or turncoat disgruntled Hillary backers.

Instead of being a single-issue poster, and insisting that you have stumbled onto something "earth shaking" (that anyone who is politically active already knows about) move on to promoting Party Unity, and getting out the vote. The PUMAs are slowly fading away -- let's let them.

Then let's get back to Clintons/McCain

I already made a distinction between PUMA and Clintons/McCain, so I'll return to a discussion of the latter, which was clearly not set up by disaffected Hillary supporters.

Surely there's room for reasonable disagreement here. On the one hand, we have the view that the mere discussion of such a group threatens to send them significant numbers of recruits. On the other, we have the view (mine) that their ludicrously far-right and bigoted home page is a lure to no one, but that their very existence raises some interesting and as yet unexplored possibilities, as well as some disturbing questions.

To wit: have we become so jaded about the American political process that we care more about a politician's adulterous affairs than we do about a campaign's subsidization of front groups? Have we become so accustomed to the Bush/Cheney politics of deception that don't raise an eyebrow when we see other Republicans resorting to flagrant deceit for partisan gain?

What's more, doesn't the news media have an obligation to scrutinize the claims that campaigns make and to hold candidates to high ethical standards? Doesn't this entail looking into campaign front groups? As I recall the press did just that with respect to the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth."

And, as a practical matter: can Democrats benefit from an investigation of Clintons/McCain?

Thinking out loud here, I also wonder if this group can be of any help?

Mission Statement
The mission of the Council on Governmental Ethics Laws is to enhance professional development of its members in the areas of government ethics, elections, campaign finance, lobbying, and freedom of information and to promote government integrity throughout the world.
http://www.cogel.org/about
(Probably not, but I thought it worth the mention)

While I make no claim to have stumbled on anything earth-shaking, I do take note of the fact that no one seems to be inquiring about this group. Whether that is of interest to any of the forum's readers remains to be seen.

Oh hell, you win. Continue

Oh hell, you win. Continue to rant and rave about a group of disgruntled Hillary supporters. No one else is "inquiring" about them, because we know exactly who they are. As for your assertion that PUMA and the “Clintons” website are two separate groups, and not connected, allow me to direct your attention to this excerpt from Wikipedia:

Diane Mantouvalos, who also founded HireHeels.com, a website trying to get women involved in politics founded “Just Say No Deal.com” along with Peter Boykin (creater of the slogan for the domain name), Will Bower, Cristi Adkins, and Thuc Ngyuen after Hillary Clinton announced her suspension of her campaign. Just Say No Deal is a coalition of groups, including PUMA, advocating against the selection of Barack Obama as the 2008 Democratic presidential nominee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_United_Means_Action#Organizers.2Fco-...

Cristi Adkins created the Clintons/McCain website, and she has been interviewed numerous times by Faux News about the "mission" of PUMA. A "distinction" between the groups? Yeah, right. They all sprouted from the same rotten seed: PUMA.

For many of the rest of us, we have more important issues to deal with, namely attempting to gather votes for Obama, and promoting Democratic Party unity. We have neither the time, nor the inclination to chase windmills, while giving our opponents free advertising in the process.

I agree!!

We have our nomimnee!! Hillary called for unity of the party. She may not have been thrilled not to get the nomination but she knows that Obama will need all the help he can get. When the party is unified we win! Everything else is unessesary gossip!

Why are we advertising for Republicans?

Should we also call all the radio shows and write letters to the editors "countering" a Repug group that is having difficulty GETTING OFF THE GROUND for lack of PUBLICITY?

Should we provide a link to that Repug group so that the curious can all hit the site and raise its rank?

Etc.

It is not amongst a general audience that one will find those who will PRIVATELY go after Repugs WITHOUT offering inadvertent advertising for them. Those folks are immediately reached by the Repug group itself. Spidy senses tingling and all that ;)

Jim

In the interests of equal

In the interests of equal time, see this "front group" website:

http://www.republicansforobama.org/

I can't prove it but...

...I'm suspicious that:

www.THOSE FOR PROPOSITION X AGAINST PROPOSITION X.com

may have not really been FOR proposition X in the first place ;)

An interesting argument

Better yet, a decisive argument. If it's true that everybody's doing it, then there's no point in having an investigative journalist look into the activities of one side only. Instead, the focus should be on generating a dialogue between legislators and public policy experts on whether this sort of activity cheapens and corrupts democracy and if so, what should be done about it?

I may or may not be alone in my opinion on this forum, but the fact remains that corporate astroturfing has been severely and, IMO, justifiably criticized, and I don't see why that criticism shouldn't extend to front groups established by campaigns.

Political campaigns in this

Political campaigns in this country, or any other country, have always been full of "dirty tricks," and unfortunately, always will be.

The fact that the USA political landscape has evolved into a de-facto two-party system almost ensures that both sides will employ the tactics of "negative" campaigning into the foreseebale future. Why? Because it works, and every vote has a potential 50/50 chance of being swayed. Negative campaigning influences those who are either too lazy, or too complacent, to do their own research, and who want someone (anyone?) to tell them how to vote. This is the group that "king-maker" wannabes target with innuendo, half-truths, and outright lies.

The best that we activists can do, is to counter this false advertising with the truth. I don't expect any Big Media organization to ride to the rescue of one side, or the other. Controversy, and Paris Hilton type reporting is their bread and butter, and political campaigns are no different in their eyes.

The "republicansforobama" group is no better, and to attempt to use a particular political affiliation for staged "shock and awe" is disengenuious. All of these "splinter" groups should have the integrity to just vote for their choices, and stand up for what they believe. Afterall, the General Election is essentially a non-partisan voting (as opposed to campaigning) process.

And finally, I do not believe that either Cristi Adkins, or PUMA, are being funded as a "front group" by the McCain machine, as there are no facts to support this assumption. It would be a waste of money considering how few followers they have attracted, despite their claims of representing "millions" (closer to 10,000). They are exactly what they say they are: malcontented sore-losers who will not graciously accept defeat, nor strive for Party unity. They place their own selfish goals above the goals of the majority of the Democratic Party, and the nation. They are political garbage, and should be treated as such.

The Front Group allegation

Are there any facts to support the assumption that C/McCain is a GOP front group?

Put it this way. There are facts which lead to informed suspicions which I think merit investigation

1) A moderator at their forum mentioned that the domain mentioned in the Wired article was slightly different and registered by a different person. The difference was the word "for" instead of the number 4. He assured me that neither his site NOR the other site (of which he claimed no first-hand knowledge) was registered by the RNC. Instead, the other site was registered to the name "RNC" as a prank by a "clown."

When I asked him, how can you be so sure who registered a domain that doesn't belong to you?

His answer? We asked the RNC and that is what they told us.

Bwahahahaha. In what alternative universe does a Democrat ask the RNC anything and take the answer at face value?

Moreover, when the Wired reporter contacted the RNC twice on this matter, the RNC did not reply. Yet the RNC took the trouble to respond to this tiny group. Uh-huh.

It doesn't take much of an imagination to realize that when the Wired article exposed the first domain (the "for" site) as an RNC-registered domain, the group promptly registered a second domain with the slightly altered spelling, this time, without RNC listed as the registrant.

2) Content-wise, everything on that site comes straight out of the current RNC playbook. It simply lacks the merest trace of anything that resembles what Hillary Clinton campaigned for.

Again, these are informed suspicions, not facts.

Someone on another site wrote about adkins:
I think she’s a plant. I saw a link to her myspace page called Clintons/McCain and it said “Paid for by McCain 2008.”

Sigh...

Sigh...

Edit link

Hi

I don't see any edit links for my posts. Would you kindly restore them? I'd like to make a minor stylistic change to my last post.

Thanks.

Once a comment, or forum starter

Once a comment, or forum starter, has been replied to, there is no way for the original poster to "edit" them.

Editing a post after comments have been made...

...potentially makes all those comments nonsensical.

And so too those who made the comments.

The site software does not allow this for hundreds of thousands of site members.

The Front Group allegation [slightly edited for style]

Are there any facts to support the assumption that C/McCain is a GOP front group?

Put it this way. There are facts which lead to informed suspicions which I think merit investigation

1) A moderator at their forum told me that the domain mentioned in the Wired article was slightly different and that it was registered by a different person. The difference was the word "for" instead of the number 4. He assured me that neither his site NOR the other site (of which he claimed no first-hand knowledge) was registered by the RNC. Instead, the other site was registered to the name "RNC" as a prank by a "clown."

When I asked him how he could be so sure who registered a domain that didn't belong to him, he replied:

We asked the RNC and that is what they told us.

Bwahahahaha. In what alternative universe does a Democrat ask the RNC anything and take the answer at face value?

Moreover, when the Wired reporter contacted the RNC twice on this matter, the RNC did not reply. Yet the RNC took the trouble to respond to this tiny group. Uh-huh.

It doesn't take much of an imagination to realize that when the Wired article exposed the first domain (the "for" site) as an RNC-registered domain, the group promptly registered a second domain with the slightly altered spelling, this time, without RNC listed as the registrant.

2) Content-wise, everything on that site comes straight out of the current RNC playbook. It simply lacks the merest trace of anything that resembles what Hillary Clinton campaigned for.

Again, these are informed suspicions, not facts.

Someone on another site wrote about adkins:
I think she’s a plant. I saw a link to her myspace page called Clintons/McCain and it said “Paid for by McCain 2008.”

Before you conclude that I've gone over to the dark side ;)

Consider that this is a legitimate public policy issue, which surfaces again and again not only in campaigns (the Swiftboaters of 2004) but in every issue that pits the corporate interest against the common good (the astroturfing organizations I alluded to earlier.)

Perhaps the reason front groups don't go away is that the issue has never really been confronted head on. Simply put -- and granted, perhaps this is too simple -- why can we legislate truth in advertising when it comes to food products, but not when it comes to determining who funds and who staffs allegedly "grass roots" organizations?

As for calling the radio shows and launching a letter writing campaign, -- um, no. Obviously that would be counterproductive. My initial thought was that an investigative reporter might look into it.

However, if it's true that nearly all Americans adopt a fairly ho-hum attitude to the practice, I don't suppose the matter would be worth investigating after all.

i'm all for investigative reporting

to expose things that are wrong.

unfortunately we've had 8 years of investigative reporting since Bush stole Florida in 2000 and almost none of it has had any effect.

that includes all the reporting on Iraq war lies, torture, and wiretapping - nothing has changed despite some excellent reporting and blogging.

so when you get down to a mini-scandal like this, the odds of investigative reporting making a difference are close to nil.

which isn't to say it shouldn't be done, just that it's not a panacea or anything close.

Bob, wise words indeed

I agree with every one of them.

For example, "Habbush-gate" (my coinage) as detailed in Ron Suskind's new book, The Way of the World, comes closer to implicating the Bush WH in impeachable activity than anything published thus far. Which of course is why Conyers plans to investigate. Yet the book and its apparently well-documented allegations has been received with almost comatose indifference by the general public. I believe ABC and CBS didn't cover it at all.

I also well remember all my email campaigns to investigative journalists, starting in August 2002, that detailed who the neocons were, what they wanted (war in Iraq) and why they were going to get it. Neither those emails nor others identifying the obviously political manipulation of intelligence made any impression on the vast majority; op-ed writer Jay Bookman stands out in my mind as one of the glaring exceptions.

So, yes, I've had both indirect and first-hand acquaintance with what Bill Bennett called "the Death of Outrage". (To be sure, what outraged him and what outrages me are very, very different.;))

Apart from calling attention to what you correctly describe as a "mini-scandal", I hope this thread will encourage fellow progressives to look at the nature of American campaigns with fresh eyes, and perhaps with renewed outrage, and to consider what we might still learn from the election systems of other countries.

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