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Will the Senate Convict???All this talk of impeachment - what about its chances of success with conviction in the Senate?? A 2/3rds majority is needed for conviction. What are the odds that 15 Republican Senators will vote to convict Bush??
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If...
the evidence revealed in the Impeachment trial is so incredible that it can not be ignored, it is very possible that they will be pressured by conscience and/or their constituency to act.
"As a Christian, I believe that Separation of Church and State is Vital, not only for the People's Protection from an overzealous Theocratic Regime, but also for the protection of Religion from suppression."
Results Matter
Whether Bush and Cheney are impeached does not really matter to me. What matters is that they are prosecuted. It is quite evident that crimes were committed. The only thing impeachment would accomplish is the formal recognition of the disgraceful way they misgoverned this country. That's not what I want, and that's not what most Americans want. We already know they are a disgrace, we don't need the Senate to tell us. So I don't think we want them impeached or censured or made to stand in the corner with conical hats on their heads. We want them to pay. We want them held accountable — personally, legally, financially and historically accountable — so this kind of outrage won't likely be tried again any time soon. If they close out their lives in federal prison, that would be just about right.
I've read arguments on this site (and elsewhere) from both the rabid impeachment supporters and the timid anti-impeachment crowd, and I can't say that either is completely right. We can't just do nothing. Rome lost its republic when it did nothing to counter the actions of men who craved more power than had been constitutionally possible to amass. Do nothing and soon enough we will have a tyrant that makes Bush look like a pussycat. Yet impeachment has its problems too.
The thing about impeachment is that any attempt to pursue it would likely be met with opposition from some Republicans who would try to turn the proceedings into a political circus, levelling charges that the Democrats are interested only in settling past scores. The dilatory, grandstanding antics of a few Republicans would serve only to push any vote on articles of impeachment into late 2008, and as for a trial in the Senate — well, let's say the Senate hasn't proven itself able to cope with meeting tight deadlines lately.
So while I cannot advocate impeachment per se, that does not mean I wouldn't favor a Congressional investigation of the many mistakes, crimes and incompetencies that Bush-Cheney and Co. have committed. Au contraire. Such an investigation should be focused not to score political points or boost Democrats' re-election chances, but rather to buttress a federal indictment that would be filed against Bush, Cheney and the rest of the criminal conspiracy once they are out of office.
Using Congress' investigative and oversight powers to provide evidence for their eventual prosecution could be done in a way that would show people the Democrats were merely following the law and pursuing justice, not being vindictive for their own political gain. I think that the tone of such hearings would be about as important as any information gleaned from the investigation. If Democrats could refrain from gloating, casting aspersions or other triumphalist behavior and stick strictly to the impartial exposition of the facts, they might be amazed at how much Republican support they could garner for a post-election prosecution.
Done right, the investigation of the crimes committed by the Bush Administration would, I believe, lead to a modicum of national healing of the great divisions Messrs. Bush and Rove have engendered. A politically tinged witchhunt, though, leads only to more rancor and discord.
I come from Illinois where sometime next year, our former governor, George Ryan, will go to prison for his corrupt activities. The way that he was prosecuted (by a fellow Republican, as it happens) was that evidence steadily mounted up against him until NOT prosecuting him for his crimes would have been a greater crime in itself. The same thing can happen at the national level, and indeed it must happen if we are to enjoy a democratic (small d) future. That's why a premature and ill-advised impeachment procedure would not be in the country's best interests at this time, while the very same investigation (more thorough, one would hope, since the deadline is not as pressing) that would be part of any impeachment should be undertaken with dignity, impartiality and probity. Let's hope such an investigation begins immediately.
American People need to know
That's not what I want, and that's not what most Americans want. We already know they are a disgrace, we don't need the Senate to tell us. So I don't think we want them impeached or censured or made to stand in the corner with conical hats on their heads. We want them to pay. We want them held accountable — personally, legally, financially and historically accountable — so this kind of outrage won't likely be tried again any time soon. If they close out their lives in federal prison, that would be just about right.
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The best reasons I can think for both impeachment and censure IS THAT MANY AMERICANS (MOST AMERICANS??) #### DON'T KNOW ##### ABOUT THE DOWNING STREET MEMO; or the Project for a New American Century; or the secret Office of Special Plans in the Pentagon; or that Ahmed Chalabi and Curveball were pumping worthless, junk to the CIA and State Department; or that Atta never met with an Iraqi agent in Prague; that even Congress was lied to by the Bushies in the form of rigged and highly editted CIA assessments that Congress was given etc.....
I want all this out in the open, in the public, and on the public record.
To me, whether Bush and Cheney or convicted in court is a smaller issue. For many reasons 1) it will probably never happen 2) it will take forever - years to prosecute, convict and then go through the appeals process before "they are made to pay" 3) there maybe legal problems and technicalities (statute of limitations being, one)
Impeachment as Divisive
Welcome, Michael to Democrats.com!
Yes, investigations are warranted, and are preludes to impeachment. But I don't know where you're coming from, as you began by saying you didn't care about impeachment, only prosecution. But the two are linked. If you want to see some probable reasons, check Convict Bush and Cheney. Prosecution isn't precluded by impeachment.
And did you know that Bush is already planning his escape route?
All that South American partying that the girls are reported as doing isn't just fun. Daughter Jenna was in Paraguay finalizing a ranch purchase. You might wonder why Bush would choose Paraguay? Could be exceptions to its extradition treaty.
Trust the people
I have indeed thought about the possibility of Bush pardoning Cheney, then resigning and having Cheney pardon him. However, I don't think they can be pre-pardoned. They need to actually be charged with or convicted of a crime first. The one blatantly political move the Democrats should do is to tie the Republican presidential nominee in 2008 to any move to pardon Bush and Cheney, to say that if he got elected, Bush and Cheney will get away with, well, literally murder. Repeated early and often enough, the charge will effectively forestall any such effort. Another thing that could be done would be for Congress to pass poison-pill legislation that would only take effect if Bush and Cheney tried to use the pardon to get off scot free. It would need to be carefully written but let's say it imposed a 5000 percent annual tax on oil companies, for instance, to be levied only if the president invoked a pardon for himself or members of his administration before July 4, 2009. That would not preclude the president from exercising his right to issue pardons, just would make it a bit more unlikely. It should hold up on constitutionality challenge.
The indictment would need to be ready to go soon after the new president takes office in 2009. Even should the Republican win the election in 2008, Democrats could maneuver the GOP candidate into allowing any prosecution to go forward by pressing him (or her, if indeed Condi Rice is chosen) during the campaign to state whether (s)he means to thwart or uphold a lawful prosecution. Skillful repetition of the issue should insure that no Republican president would take extraordinary measures to prevent the case from going to trial. Once the indictment is handed down and Bush and Cheney appear in court, the prosecutor could ask that their passports be confiscated. You can't flee if you can't fly.
Essentially what I meant by not caring about impeachment so long as prosecution follows the turnover of power is this: Impeachment, to succeed, relies on some of the actors who were complicit in foisting this illegal war on the American people to now vote to convict Bush of the very thing they helped him do. Don't bet on enough of them having the integrity to do so. However, if Bush and Cheney are indicted in the District of Columbia on criminal charges, I will take my chances with a jury comprised (likely) of regular middle-class white and African-American taxpayers who didn't just come up with the sunrise and who know a crook when they see one. When you want something done right, keep the politicians out of it and trust the American people.
I guess my concern is if an
I guess my concern is if an investigation and then trial came for impeachment would the DLC members vote for impeachment or would they side with Bush like they have in the past?
Censure - a middle course?
I called Pelosi's office yesterday and asked about holding Bush and his administration accountable etc... but that impeachment was "off the table". I asked "what about censure of Bush" - is that off the table too? They refused to give me an answer.
Censure Is Off the Table
With so many high crimes and misdemeanors committed by this administration, censure is a poor, unacceptable compromise. That will become increasingly evident as investigations are reported in the mainstream media and general public becomes aware of them. For a sampling, check out After Downing Street and Impeach for Change.
Further, we shouldn't be diluting our Constitution that way. I know that I'll sound partisan here, but if Clinton could be impeached for a lie to save himself embarassment and his family anguish, I certainly can't see anything less for Bush, whose multiple lies have cost thousands their lives and even more, injuries.
We are entrusted with the responsibility and obligation to perserve our Constitution. It is the price we pay for the many privileges of being Americans. Many of our ancestors paid a high price to do it. They and our progeny deserve nothing less from us.
At the close of the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia on September 18, 1787, a Mrs. Powel anxiously awaited the results, and as Benjamin Franklin emerged from the long task now finished, asked him directly: "Well Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?" "A republic if you can keep it" responded Franklin.
This isn't a partisan act, though there are those who, perhaps having recently misused the power themselves, may make that claim. This is fundamentally an act of sincere concerned Americans to preserve our Republic with its democratic traditions by living up to the standard that our Constitution prescribes.
I might have gone along with censure as an alternative in Clinton's case. But, given the severe and numerous high crimes and misdemeanors of Bush's administration, censure is "off the table."
"We are the ones we've been waiting for."
---The Elders, Oraibi, Arizona Hopi Nation"
Impeachment will die in the Senate
You don't care??? An exercise in futility??
I think Pelosi will........
I think Pelosi will crack under enough pressure from the public. So as soon as possible in January, we all need to contact our reps.
I agree
We The People have amazing power!The Impeachment train has already left the station and Pelosi/Conyers won't be able to stop it. Wait for it....wait for it...
Dead in the water????
Here is the "activity" in my Congressional district on impeachment:
There are no entries yet for your area. Please create a Forum Topic and tell everyone what's happening here!
Congressional District: MI07
IMPEACHMENT COMMITTEE - Michigan 07
by ralpheh on 11/17/2006 - 1:48pm - comments 0
I wait with great anticipation
for you to make that first entry! Glad you're here. ;-)
Conservative. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from a Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
~Ambrose Bierce, 1842-1914, American Author, Editor, Journalist.